1995 T&C van - brakes revisited

Hi folks -

I got some very good ideas from you all with my first inquiry so I am back.
A few months ago I was asking about ABS problems on a '95 T&C van I was
considering buying. At the time, the guy thought it had a big ABS failure
but I have an update.

According to the shop paperwork he dug up, it was diagnosed as "Front Brakes
20% Pressure - Accumulator pressure down"...

I always thought the accumulator was the power brake booster that the master
cylinder is attached to. Everything I read about the ABS on this car (after
many fine tips from this group) says it has no part called "accumulator".

What go you folks think? I need a van for clearing out my folks house so we
can sell it. I want a minivan so it will fit in the garage. I need it for
less than a year. Everything else on this van is in good shape, especially
for 170k miles. It goes OK but doesn't stop too well was the description I
got.

I think I'll make an offer if the accumulator is something I can fix (I have
been shade-tree wrenching since childhood - I am a good and careful home
mechanic.)

Suggestions?

Thanks ahead of time!
PoD

 

One more thing - the details said it was NOT ABS - - that's why I think
master cyl...

I am trying to keep the purchase price within the "stimulus package" price
range.

TIA

PoD

 

The part you are describing is the booster. The accumulator is part
of the ABS system. I would run away from this vehicle as fast as you
could... The brake fix WILL cost more than what you plan to pay for
the van.

Steve B.

 

Thanks Steve - I was trying to figure out how it could be the accumulator
and -NOT- be ABS. It didn't add up. I am glad my BS alarm went off and I
dropped in here. I have been reading newsgroups (and participating) for
years. I think they are one of the best things on the internet!

PoD

 

You are being mislead. The 95 Caravan has the best ABS system that the car
has ever had!! The infamous Bendix 10 system was not on that vehicle or the
94 van.The Bendix 10 was the system that was recalled. If you like this 95
and it is in good shape I would buy it. It was the best year for the Mini
Van


Glenn Beasley
Chrysler Tech

 

Is there a likely culprit with the system on a '95 that would cause
the weak braking and ABS light on?

I infer that the OP is looking for something around $600 since he
mentioned the stimulus check. Checking my local Craig's List there
are 5 of these vans out there for less than 1K in operable condition.
I know any vehicle in that price range is going to be a pig in a poke
but personally I would rather start with one that is working and pray
from there.

Steve B.

 

This is a complete crapload of BS.

The 93-95 T&C use the Bendix 4 ABS system which does not have
a separate accumulator. The accumulator is part of the modulator
assembly.

Paul, yes, if you take this to the dealer it will cost. But IF this is
indeed a 95 - and check the VIN - the part that is probably failing
is the modulator, which is under the battery, and has a bunch of
brake lines going to it.

If you have a wrecker or u-pull it or pick-a-part in your area,
then just get another modulator and swap it in. The only thing
you would have to have the dealer do is bleed the brake system, because
to properly bleed that ABS system requires a Chrysler DRB scantool
which only a dealer has.

Here are the parts in that ABS system that are specific to the ABS:

modulator assembly
unique proportioning valves
unique junction block
wheel speed sensors
tone wheels
electronic control unit

All the critical stuff is in the modulator assembly. And normally
these in the bendix 4 system are pretty bulletproof.

Chrysler got savaged over the Bendix 10 ABS system used in prior
year vans, and has a lifetime warranty on parts of it as a result.
Obviously for the 93-95 year they went to Bendix and told them
to make a bulletproof system and spare no expense, which they
did.

In any case, the ABS system normally never is in operation. If
the van has weak brakes, it is as you thought, somewhere else in
the system. If there's no fluid leaks, and the brake fluid is contaminated
with water, the master cylinder would be a good place to start.

I have 2 of these vans. The ONLY time I've ever had the ABS
system trigger at all was when I was testing to see if it worked
during the winter when we had a really cold bit, and ice on the
road.

Ted

 

If you have a weak braking system forget about the ABS system. Check the
base braking system. ABS is a separate function

 

So tell me great one what part of my text is a "complete crapload of
bs".

The part he was describing is the booster. Fact.

The accumulator is part of the ABS system. You seem to agree as you
said the same thing is your text.

The brake fix will cost more that what he plans to pay for the
vehicle. Fact
He's looking at a $600max van. By the time he tows the vehicle home
for repair then to the dealer after repair, gets a part out of a
junkyard and replaces it (and that one part won't be the only thing he
needs) and then pays a dealer to bleed the brakes he will have spent
as much or more than he spent for the van. For $1000 he could have
just gotten one of these vans that didn't need any work (yet).

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is a complete crapload of BS.

 

You folks have given me some more food for thought. I think the thing I was
having trouble with was the thought that ABS would affect the regular
braking system. I think we've cleared that part up. Heck, it could be a
stupid broken vacuum line! I am going to give it a closer look. The
current owner doesn't seem to be in any hurry to sell.

I am also thinking of stuffing a wad of cash in my pocket and visiting a few
of the local used car lots. I don't mind cleaning something up as long as
it runs and drives ok. I might get lucky and find one that was traded in
with the kids popcorn, soda, and gum still in it for dirt cheap.

I have a little time before I really need it - - thanks again for all the
good info.

Paul (PoD)

 

The accumulator in this system is not separately replaceable.

Either the van is actually a 92 or something or the service tech had
his head up his ass.

Not fact. It depends on what is broken. If it has weak braking it isn't
the ABS system as I already said. It is likely a fluid leak that is letting
air in the system, or a master cylinder that is leaking internally or some
such. It isn't the ABS.

You cannot cut into the hydraulic system on these vans without bleeding
them, which MUST be done at a dealer (or someone with a Chrysler
scanner) Trust me, I have 2 of these vans both with ABS and I have
an aftermarket scantool (OTC) that does everything BUT trigger the
ABS selonoids to allow you to bleed it, and talk to the ABS computer.
I've taled to OTC themselves about this - Chrysler did NOT release
info on talking to the ABS computer. No scanner other than the
Chrysler one can talk to this system.

If he has the ABS light on and a chrysler scantool said the accumulator
is bad that means the accumulator pistons INSIDE the modulator are
bad, which means you replace the modulator. You cannot rebuild
the modulator in a home garage. HOWEVER the ABS light will go
on for other problems that have nothing to do with the modulator, it
is stupid to sit there guessing.

A shadetree mechanic can fix this problem without spending a mint.
All he needs to do is normal brake system troubleshooting, fix any
fluid leaks or bad master cylinder, and when that is done then take
it to a dealer and have them bleed the system and scan the ABS
computer. If the computer says a wheel sensor is bad (a VERY
common occurance) you buy the part and replace it. If it says the
modulator is shot, then hell with it - unless you live in a climate that
requires ABS. He needs braking, he does not need ABS. A shot
modulator will not interfere with braking if all the other parts are
good.

Hello, heard of AAA before? Free towing? Eh?

If the only thing that is bad is the ABS and a spongy brake due to
air in the hydralic system, he can drive it to the dealer, he likely does
not
need to tow it. Unless he lives 100 miles away from a dealer on the
other end of a freeway. He implied the current owner is driving it.

This isn't how you buy a used car.

You look at everything. Maybe this van is pristine with a transmission
that was rebuilt a year ago and the owner is just tired of it.

So what if other vans of this vintage are selling for $1K. You don't
know what their condition is. Maybe they are all right mechanically
but have the crap dented out of them, and the OP doesen't want to
drive around looking like a bum.

Not everyone lives in an area like I happen to live in where they
don't salt the crap out of the roads and vehicles last 30 years still
looking like they rolled off the assembly line (sans poor paint)

The OP has to take what is available in his area. I presumed he
already looked around. Did you?

Ted

 

Whenever I have sold a car in the past I've gone to great lenghts to
make it appear I'm in no hurry to sell.

Start pulling out the 100's and make him an offer. Thats the only way
to really know if he's ready to sell.

Generally the people that need these vans are the young families and
the fact of the matter is that there's very little else available that they
can
use. 20 years ago there were still enough used station wagons on the
market, but not anymore.

And, if you do have a young family, once you have driven your
family around in one of these you will never give it up. They are
just too damn well suited for this task. And the T&C in particular
has amenities that I wouldn't give up easily.

Just make sure the A/C works. If it doesen't, these vans turn into
rolling greenhouses in the summer.

Ted

 

Thanks Ted - You and Glenn have provided the mechanical insight I need to
make the decision. I appreciate every answer here. Thanks again,
everybody.

PoD

 

I would suggest the local paper and Craigs List if you want to take
your "wad o' cash" and go looking. An original owner is less likely
to lie to you about the condition of a vehicle because they don't want
you knocking on their door the next day. If I would be ashamed to
sell a car to you then I would take it to a dealer and trade it in.
Note that isn't a rule.. Some people have no problems lying to your
face.

Steve B.

 

I'll agree the original diagnosis may be (or even probably is) wrong.
I still would run from the vehicle and I still think he will spend as
much fixing it as he does buying it... I hope that he buys it and
comes back next month to tell me I was wrong.

Steve B.

 

Steve - The car I was looking at is being sold by the original owner - -
but - - your advise and others have given me some serious rething time. I
think I will look around a LOT more before I buy something.

Thanks to everyone here - - this kind of discussion is why I like usenet. I
hear everything!!

PoD