1995 Plymouth Grand Voyager

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by Robt. Brogan, Oct 7, 2007.

  1. Robt. Brogan

    Robt. Brogan Guest

    3.1 V8 auto, A/C and so on. Had a new trans 3 years ago and now on a
    totally intermittent basis it stops shifting. 3000rpm and 30 mph. This
    has happened when I stop, there is a shudder and then the lack of
    shifting starts. Other times after you take off from a light and let up
    on the gas, there's a shudder and the shifting goes goofy again..
    Sometimes if I stop, kill the engine and restart, it goes away, other
    times not.

    Garage has had it a driven it for days and things are fine. Often it's
    weeks before the problem comes up again.

    Anyone got any clues?
     
    Robt. Brogan, Oct 7, 2007
    #1
  2. Robt. Brogan

    Mike Y Guest

    My 93 Intrepid does this too. Once it misses a shift, it seems to
    continue locked in 2nd gear. I usually happens within the first few
    minutes of driving. If I get more than a mile or two without it
    happening, it just plain won't happen at all. It seems to happen
    more when it's cold out, like below 32 degrees.

    At first I thought it was low fluid. The car does have 200K miles on it
    and it leaks a bit from the main seal. Not worth fixing. However now
    what I think is happening is that there is a bad connection somewhere
    and it 'glitches' the controller. Once that happens, I have to turn the
    motor off and restart and it's usually fine.
     
    Mike Y, Oct 7, 2007
    #2
  3. Very likely is is because whoever dropped that V-8 into your Grand
    Voyager didn't do the conversion right. I wonder how exactly he dealt
    with the problem of installing a rear axle and changing the engine mounts
    from the transverse mounted V-6 that used to be in your van to go to
    rear wheel drive - since of course, a V8 block is too long to go transverse
    mount.

    Interesting conversion, let's have some pictures!

    Now, go back and reread your owners manual and your vehicle specs
    and ponder how exactly a person who can't even post the correct
    engine size and type knows more than the garage in how to repair his
    vehicle.

    Next time, post the correct specs on your van. And, take it to the
    dealer, please. If your trans acts up, it will set a code in the computer.
    Your garage obviously doesen't know how to retrieve this. The
    dealer does, and has the expensive proprietary scantool to do it with.

    Ted
     
    Ted Mittelstaedt, Oct 8, 2007
    #3
  4. Robt. Brogan

    Robt. Brogan Guest

    Ok Ted Jackass, I mis-posted as V8 when it's a V6. Too bad you couldn't
    just ignore that mistake and answer the question.

    But then you're a huge jackass of the highest order. I sure hope you
    haven't reproduced since there's enough jackasses in the world.
     
    Robt. Brogan, Oct 8, 2007
    #4
  5. Robt. Brogan

    Robt. Brogan Guest

    Mine started in the summer. Just did it yesterday again. Shudderd as I
    stopped and then wouldn't shift. Later, after I'd stopped at the store
    and it sat for 15 mins or so, it was fine as I left and this repeats the
    same pattern.

    I hope someone here has a clue, other than the Ted-jackass.
     
    Robt. Brogan, Oct 8, 2007
    #5
  6. Robt. Brogan

    Steve B. Guest

    />

    You may not care for the messenger but the message is valid. Why ask
    a bunch of strangers across the globe what the problem with your
    transmission is when you can just ask your transmission? Take it to
    a dealer or a **very good** (not aamco) transmission shop and have the
    codes read from the transmission controller. I'm not sure how long it
    holds this information so do it as quick as you can after an event.

    Get back to the group with the codes and you will stand a better
    chance of getting some good advice.

    Steve B.
     
    Steve B., Oct 8, 2007
    #6
  7. Robt. Brogan

    Jim Guest

    I've had it at a dealer and unfortunately when there, it hasn't acted
    up. It's like the old doctor joke, "Doc, it hurts when I've done this!"

    "Is it doing it now asks the Doc?"

    "No" the man said.

    "Well, I can't help you then." said the Doc.
     
    Jim, Oct 9, 2007
    #7
  8. Robt. Brogan

    Jim Guest

    I forgot to say they read the computer and there wasn't any info.
     
    Jim, Oct 9, 2007
    #8
  9. I don't see that there's any call for that sort of name-calling. You
    took it to a garage, the garage doesen't know what they are doing.
    Most people would be disgusted with the garage and would be
    calling around other garages for second opinions. In your case you
    came to us and we will give you some advice that will help you -
    but look here, you are hardly holding up your end of the bargain.
    This is a self-help forum. It is considered good manners if your going
    to ask advice here to at least have done a small amount of effort
    trying to figure it out yourself. Your owners manual, for example, would
    have explained that what your experiencing is the trans automatically
    shutting itself down (AKA "limp mode") after detecting a fault. Have
    you even read it? And I don't think it out of line to expect you to
    know what any auto parts store is going to ask you if you were to
    walk in and buy a part. Not to mention that "3.8" is molded into the
    intake air plenum on your engine and if you open the hood it's
    staring you right in the face.

    As I said previously, you need to have your transmission scanned,
    ie: interrogated by a scantool at a dealer. Such a tool will read
    out error codes and also tell you a lot about the health of the
    transmission.
    It is very likely that your fault is a sensor failing. And the trans
    computer
    will have an error code set if that is happening. It is not uncommon for
    people who get transmissions rebuilt at elsewhere than the dealer to
    have this problem happen - because other places use aftermarket sensors
    that tend to fail sooner than the dealer ones - not that the dealer ones
    have that long a lifespan anyhow. I've had it happen to me twice in one
    of my vans. However, I also spent the money and time to buy a scantool
    and the pieces needed to be able to have it talk to my transmission so
    that when it happened I could pull the error codes and know for certain it
    was the sensor going out again. Economically, it would have been cheaper
    to have the dealer scan it since I still haven't paid back the cost of the
    tool -
    but the convenience of being able to diagnose in the driveway at my
    convenience and fix at my convenience makes up for it.

    Of course, you can simply keep shotgunning it. Your choice. Just be
    aware that the trans computer will happily throw it into limp mode
    while your barrelling down the highway at 70Mph if it sees a sensor
    failure. It really isn't that great on the health of the transmission to
    shift down to 2nd gear from overdrive at that speed on a regular basis.

    Ted

    PS Same advice goes for the guy in the Intrepid.
     
    Ted Mittelstaedt, Oct 9, 2007
    #9
  10. Robt. Brogan

    Robt. Brogan Guest

    Thanks. This was more the kind of reply I would have expected rather
    than your rant about engine cylinders. You could have [originally] been
    kinder rather than a smart-ass. OTOH, you came through the second time.
     
    Robt. Brogan, Oct 9, 2007
    #10
  11. Robt. Brogan

    Mike Y Guest

    Well, the situation with the Intrepid is that there are NO error codes.

    OK, not entirely true. It says battery failure once in a while. And it
    gave
    an O2 sensor error, but I replaced the O2 sensors (both of them) and the
    ignition wires and the mileage went up considerably (from the teens to the
    mid-20's), the surging on level road with cruise control stopped, and the
    slight miss went away. The tranny still misbehaves occasionally.

    Oh, the tranny NEVER downshifts to 2nd/limp mode. So far, in 3 years,
    it ONLY happens when I come to a stop and start out again. It starts out
    and stays in 2nd. If it starts out in first, it ALWAYS shifts fine and goes
    all the way to OD. Also, it is EXTREMELY rare for it to happen more
    than once per day. Almost as if the slight warming from driving at all
    makes it not want to happen. And it almost always happens within
    the first 1 or 2 stopsigns from starting out in the morning.
     
    Mike Y, Oct 9, 2007
    #11
  12. Robt. Brogan

    Robt. Brogan Guest

    FWIW I was out today and stopped at the Garage and they did
    scan/interrogate the trans computer which led to a solenoid problem but
    nothing of the shuddering and then not shifting.

    Also, the trans which it got that was rebuilt came from Chrysler with a
    warrantee which was up last April and the problem started in May-June.

    Oh and it's not "shotgunning" at all, those are your words. The garage
    I've used since 1988 doesn't work that way and they don't do things not
    indicated. That's why nothing's been done and they've driven the van for
    over a day, trying to replicate the problem and look at it while it's
    happening. So, if it happens while I'm out in the local area, I'll go
    there while it's doing it and maybe the problem can be found.
     
    Robt. Brogan, Oct 10, 2007
    #12
  13. Robt. Brogan

    kmath50 Guest

     
    kmath50, Oct 11, 2007
    #13
  14. Hmmm - OK, if there was a solenoid problem, then why would you
    or they think it's not related to the shuddering and not shifting? I would
    think it would be. Did they give you the code? Just curious - what tool
    did they use?

    The codes do get reset eventually so if it happens and you wait too
    long to have it scanned then you won't get codes back.
    Oh man that just sucks!

    One other question for you on the rebuilt trans. You said Chrysler rebuilt
    it -
    but, did Chrysler install and fill it with fluid? Or did your local garage?
    If
    so, that may be the problem. These transmissions should not have any other
    fluid than ATF +3 or ATF +4, preferably ATF +4. It used to be that
    only ATF +3 was available from the aftermarket, but recently Chrysler
    said they were going to make ATF+4 available via aftermarket.

    A lot of garages fall for the marketing line of cock-and-bull from this
    company called Lubegard which claims to be able to "make" ATF +4
    by having the garage fill the transmission with Dexron then pouring a
    carton of this lubegard shift modifier crap in the transmission. The
    garages
    are susceptable to this because Dexron is less than half the cost of ATF +4.

    Really, with your symptoms, you got 3 possible problem areas. First is in
    the eleectronics, sensor, trans computer, etc. But just about any of
    that will set a code. Second is wrong fluid. It happens a LOT more
    than you would believe. That usually won't set a code. Last is a
    hard part failure, or bad clearance in the transmission. Those also
    usually won't set a code either. So, you really really want it to set a
    code!

    Anytime the trans computer shifts the trans into limp mode it is going
    to set an error code.

    Ted
     
    Ted Mittelstaedt, Oct 13, 2007
    #14
  15. Robt. Brogan

    Robt. Brogan Guest

    The code indicated the solenoid problem which is what led to it being
    replaced and after that things *appeared* to be fine with the problem
    gone but then weeks later it returned. I'd have to as the name of the
    device they used to scan the trans.

    BTW, this is the first unsolved problem I'ver ever had with them since I
    began using them in 1988.
    Yes, but when it first happened after the warrentee was up, they agreed
    it shouldn't have happened and I think they would stand behind it. The
    solenoid is not internal to the trans so that was not covered.
    The garage got the trans from Chrysler with the 3 yr warrantee when I
    had it done. The warrantee was why I chose this path rather than a
    rebuilt which had a lesser warrantee for lesser money.
    I'd have to ask if Lubegard was involved.
    I've been waiting for it to act up again and stop shifting. I'm home on
    disability so I'm local to them and can just head there if it acts up so
    when that happens they were going to look at it again.
    Are you calling the lack of shifting limp mode? As I said it shudders
    when stopping OR when you accelerate from a stop and let up a bit, then
    it's 3000 rpm @ 34 mph and doesn't downshift. Then it goes away for no
    reason with no shudder or whatnot. Seems though like the engine has to
    have been off for things to get back to normal.

    I'm hesitant to go to the dealer for no other reason than I didn't get
    the trans there, but at the garage who has said they'd take care of the
    problem when they find it. I've left it for them to drive for 2 days and
    it wouldn't do it...you know haw that sometimes goes with stuff you need
    to get fixed.

    BTW, while we got off on the wrong foot( or was it tire!!!) I appreciate
    your comments/advice and will look some more into things.
     
    Robt. Brogan, Oct 14, 2007
    #15
  16. Every time the key is cycled which means shut off then turned again the
    trans computer gets partially reset and "gives it another try" so to speak
    and attempts to operate normally till it senses another fault. I have had
    mine go into limp mode which yes is 2nd gear and reverse only due to
    interference from a radio tower and the fix was simply to shift to neutral
    and turn the key off and back on then put it back in drive. I didn't even
    have to stop the car and if you do the key cycle just right you don't even
    have to recrank the engine as it is still spinning fast enough to continue
    running. Now I don't recommend others try this as one time my mom was
    driving and managed to hit reverse instead on neutral at 45mph but it worked
    for me.

    To elaborate on this "limp mode" you see mentioned here it is due to the
    fact that 2nd gear and reverse are hard coded into the valve body on the
    trans. The car going into limp mode is simply the trans computer saying "I
    give up" and shutting down which cuts all power to the solenoid pack. To
    prove this to yourself unplug the solenoid pack connector, trans computer
    connector, or just pull the TCM fuse and drive the car and you will find
    that all you have is 2nd gear and usually the cruise control and speedometer
    won't work either along with the shift indicators if your car has the
    electronic indicators instead of the old string and needle style.
     
    Daniel Who Wants to Know, Oct 15, 2007
    #16
  17. Your welcome, sorry about jumping to conclusions in the beginning.

    My only further advice is to make sure you get it documented that
    Chrysler agreed the problem started under warranty.

    I still think it is a sensor problem but the lack of an error code from the
    transmission computer doesen't make sense. The only other thing might
    possibly be a loss of electrical power to the trans computer itself - the
    trans computer cannot set codes if it's not running. You did mention
    they replaced the trans computer - perhaps they didn't properly clean
    the contacts on the big header that plugs into the front of the computer
    when they did it, or perhaps the moisture rubber guard around that
    connector is leaking.

    You could get a bottle of contact cleaner and some cotton swabs and
    do it yourself. Or if it's water, take the connector apart and spray it
    all down with WD-40.

    You might also check the rubber seal that is on the top where the hood
    fits against the body - if that is leaking, water pours down into the engine
    compartment when it rains.

    Another common area is the input speed sensor contacts. That sensor is
    right under the transmission cooling oil line fittings and if those leak,
    trans
    oil goes down and softens the rubber connector on the speed sensor
    and makes that connection get loose. But if that is the problem it will
    definitely set a code in the computer.

    Ted
     
    Ted Mittelstaedt, Oct 17, 2007
    #17
  18. Robt. Brogan

    Robt. Brogan Guest

    I thought I'd said solenoid which is outside the trans they said.
    No leaks there, I've checked.
    I'll ask them to check it. The problem hasn't reoccurred for about 10
    days now. It's so darn intermittent.
     
    Robt. Brogan, Oct 18, 2007
    #18
  19.  
    Ted Mittelstaedt, Oct 19, 2007
    #19
  20. Robt. Brogan

    Robt. Brogan Guest

     
    Robt. Brogan, Oct 19, 2007
    #20
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